Perko and Southco Latches ~ LONG
Gents (and Ladies), First we realize that all involved apparently like their boats very much. You were all very plain on that. Though we do understand the predicament mentioned on latches. There is and has been a great deal of discussion about the latches. A similar discussion was had when we went from D ring Perko to black T handles and from black T handles to Chrome metallic ones. And we do still use Perko Latches on all Advantage and Vision models. They would be great on those products, though the cost of them would tremendously increase the materials cost on those models. These latches are expensive, the $45 Christmas Special has them at fundamental cost of the latches. Yes they are high! And we will say that again a few times. We have played with latches going back to the 90s and Sarasota latches. Things have come a long ways from those hasps of the 70s. The 2015 era will probably be no different as something different will emerge and the higher price of a Southco now will allow for some improved R & D and costs. When you see a $30k, $40 or a $50,000 boat, we see a trolling motor of about $1k, electronics that now range into the $3k mark, engines that run up to about $18k, propellers of $450 or more, then the trailers and even more parts, and freight to and from. Then we still have to recover our buildings, overheads, insurances, labor, maintenance and then try to make a profit on assembly of those parts. Not to mention that a dealership must also profit on the sale to remain in business. This is not a $50k BCB profit potential. And it is compacted ever so much more in todays climate. It is not all gravy! Do the math on the parts and you will quickly become aware of the limited potential here for any company. We did not offer the Southco latches in 2008, and we do not offer an upgrade. The reason for an upgrade on the black T handle Perko latches to the Chrome metal T handle latches was that we found those to be substandard. We definitely wanted to pitch in our portion. This present Christmas special is an effort to make the latches more affordable for all. They are very, very expensive for a door part, and that we have said many times before. One of the issues is that we use a seal trim on the lips to reduce moisture leakage. This requires that we compress our lids to the seal trim, much like the door trim on your car. Though we do not have the luxury of the volumes that the car industry has. The door pillar holds a pin for the latch hook to rotate against. A neat latching set up which we wish we could modify. We have tried and have even cooperated with a Chinese vehicle parts company and failed to develop one that we preferred. There was a language barrier there on the process. You wont see us getting away from the pressure on the lids as the seal on the lid is crucial to reducing the moisture leaking into the boxes. This is more critical to us as we do not use a plastic insert, and the boxes are a part of the construction and strength of the boat. Thus they are totally sealed at the bottom and will hold water if they leak. We try hard to reduce that as much as we can, and we obviously do not get them all sealed while trying to. We have been involved in upgrading our latch quality going way back, from Sarasota, to the D ring Perko, T handle Perko and then others along the way. We first saw the Southco Latches at a marine trade show. There was no way at that time that we could afford to install them on a bass boat. A competitors increased cost of latches is what allowed us to do that in 2009. Though that competitor was having issues with their design failing, and they could not back up and retain the image of quality without exposing that as a failure in returning to Perko latches on their upper models again. Their use of Southco latches gave us an opportunity to move tot hem on our upper tier as well. We have wanted to ever since we first saw them, though again they were cost prohibitive. To you as a consumer you see a $50 latch, though multiply it by 14 or 15 latches and the cost rises significantly. These are roughly 3 to 4 or perhaps 5 times as expensive as those Perko latches for us to purchase. It becomes a cost of materials and no incremental gain in value for us at retail. Overtons sells the Perko latch for $24.99, whereas West Marine sells it for $42.99. They sell the Teak Isle latch for $89.99. The cheapest we found it on Deal Time was $68.59 through Amazon.com. Here is a link to the Deal Time search ~ Search for Southco. Bass Pro and Cabelas have them for around $62.99 each, though it is not real clear on the matching style. You see, we think we have met in the middle on the $45 price tag? I would like for my 2006 Tahoe to have a radio that accepted an iPod jack also, though that did not start till 2007. So both my other trucks (03 & 06) are without while our 2007 Z71 has the iPod and Media Jack in it. Sorry to have a simile there. Folks still buy other boat brands, as in brands T, St, S or others and latches are latches to them. And the latches on those units are significantly less than the cost of a Perko. It doesnt yet seem that the return is there for the cost of these latches, though 2009 is young yet. In the 90s we began working with Eberhard to develop new latches. They had a fundamental design similar to Southco, though it was all plastic with metal cams. The Volume of latches was needed to produce these latches, and they sought other builders to offer the new latch. When they sought those builder, they insistently asked for a lower price tag. Pressuring Eberhard to the point where they lessened the quality of the latch, and removed the O-Ring set up we had installed for moisture resistance. It seems that a dry box was not a factor to our competition. In the end our competitor took off began working with a friend of theirs to build a new all plastic T handle latch that was cheap, and it is still offered today. We were involved originally in the slam latches of another competitor, though when we tested them they would close and fail to latch. The aluminum transfer bar would impact the aluminum hook and the hook and transfer bar would fail, since they are soft aluminum. This required a bending of the latches and the powder coat would fall off. So we scrapped that concept and it is still used by a competitor today. The development of latches extends to one set of Slam Latches used in a Puma of Phil Addisons a while back. Phil had a trick set Perko T Handle slam latches, which he kept quiet while testing them. Some of you may have seen these, though they did not work out. It seems that the cost of these latches was not accepted by others who Perko offered a concept to. The cost was less than these Southco latches also. We actually built a front deck assembly with lids for Perko. Made several trips going to and from Mountain Home and Miami, FLorida trying to develop these latches. In the end they reduced a solid plastic threaded and molded block to a shell which was too flexible. They changed the arms and actions, failing to increase the stem size and offer a more durable design, in effect to reduce costs at the insistence of our competition. Some of that competition now offers Southco latches too. Had they jumped on our band wagon and accepted the lesser cost, we would have had an even better design last season. Though they were committed at that time to their bar deck design. Phil is welcome to share his uses of those latches. We then designed a flip handle J hook latch that cams also. That latch was in the process of being in R & D when the Southco latches became accepted by a competitor. We have the mechanics of that new latch all formatted to start prior to the Southco move. If we ever have that J cam latch built, it will be a better design. Though it would not retro fit into the existing sockets. A positive for Southco. You see we have taken latches seriously for decades. We have always tried to improve the product here. Though we can and do offer you the latches at a significantly reduced price tag and that is the Christmas offer. They were not available in 2008 from Bass Cat. We have done our best to offer them at well below market value on these latches. Guys we work very hard on Customer Service, as most of you know. The doors being tight is a nature of a Bass Cat for sealing purposes. Please also understand we are trying to offer the best compromise from our side to get you the products you want. This post could be much longer with many more experiences, though we will leave it as it is and we hope that most of you understand. Though we realize that some will not see our position. It is human nature. Thanks you all for your time and your support! Thank you for preferring your Bass Cat boats and all of the comments are welcome. Only through criticism can we improve. Again, we are leaving the previous post up here for all to see. Now you all go have a Joyous Holiday Season! God Bless you and your families, Rick Pierce, Bass Cat BoatsLast edited by Bass Cat Boats on December 24th, 2008, 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thanks for going into such great detail with us on whats going on. I for one have been pleased with the Perko latches that came on my boat. With proper use I have never had a problem with mine. Hey Phil would you mind giving us a show and tell on the latches you tested now the CAT is out of the bag.
Thanks basscat. I have no problems with my perco latches, and have had them on previous boat from another brand. I like them as they serve there purpose. I also love the bubble trim for the nice tight fit on the lids. Just keep doing what your doing as Im a customer for life.
So if I read correctly. If we dont care for the present latches in our boat, then up grade to the better more expensive ones for $45 like I already have done and love. If we cant afford the newer latches, we can still get the existing latches replaced under warranty. ( How long is this warranty?) Is there any price consideration or compromise other than the $45 for replacing the whole lot? Just trying to clear the air. Not bitching. Glynn
Thanks guys for the detailed effort. This is why I remain a proud Cat owner. Its really hard to find those willing to take time for the details these days. I have the perkos, and Ive just learned to stand on them or put a knee on them, and to position them flat again so as not to have a trip hazard. They never give me any trouble. I guess a different way to look at this; out of all the issues that you read about on other pages regarding bass boat issues (gel coat, transom issues, drop in boxes, trailer rust, poor customer support, fit and finish etc, etc, etc……) Im so thankful that we have the time to focus so much attention to what I consider to be a minor detail that can be easily fixed at the customers whim. Im also very thankful to have a place to come and present issues that are addressed promptly not from the bottom up through the ranks of the company, but from the top down. Rick, Ive held a high opinion of you since receiving my hand written letter after purchasing my boat. Spending hours on a response on the day of Christmas Eve, Sir you just went up a few more knotches in my book. A sincere thank you for your commitment to making things right. Merry Christmas to all
Bass Cat Boats wrote: We were involved originally in the slam latches of another competitor, though when we tested them they would close and fail to latch. The aluminum transfer bar would impact the aluminum hook and the hook and transfer bar would fail, since they are soft aluminum. This required a bending of the latches and the powder coat would fall off. So we scrapped that concept and it is still used by a competitor today. The development of latches extends to one set of Slam Latches used in a Puma of Phil Addisons a while back. Phil had a trick set Perko T Handle slam latches, which he kept quiet while testing them. Some of you may have seen these, though they did not work out. It seems that the cost of these latches was not accepted by others who Perko offered a concept to. The cost was less than these Southco latches also. We actually built a front deck assembly with lids for Perko. Made several trips going to and from Mountain Home and Miami, FLorida trying to develop these latches. In the end they reduced a solid plastic threaded and molded block to a shell which was too flexible. They changed the arms and actions, failing to increase the stem size and offer a more durable design, in effect to reduce costs at the insistence of our competition. Some of that competition now offers Southco latches too. Had they jumped on our band wagon and accepted the lesser cost, we would have had an even better design last season. Though they were committed at that time to their bar deck design. Phil is welcome to share his uses of those latches. Rick Pierce, Bass Cat Boats I appreciate that Rick! The slam latch in my opinion was/is a unique concept. If designed right and performed as they were/are suppose to have, they would have eliminated any water intrusion into the compartment caused by insufficient adjustment of the latch by the user and would have made an easier system of opening and closing compartment lids. As Rick stated above, the stems were not strong enough nor were the blocks (shells) to accomplish the goal. To get an idea of what we had here, picture a spring loaded cam that when in the closed position fit inside a grooved block (shell). This block had as many as 4 or 5 grooves and the farther down block/shell the cam traveled, the tighter the lid fit against the bubble trim. Since the cam was spring loaded, it didnt matter if the latch was in the open or closed position to latch. Nor did it matter for the most part where the cam was mounted on to the stem. If the latch was in the closed position with the lid open, the user simply shut the compartment lid and the spring would allow the end of the cam to pull back until in the desired groove. The user then pushed down on top of the lid for the tight fit or stepped on top of the lid to get the tightest fit possible. If the latch was in the open position when the lid was closed, the user simply closed and latched as they would today, but a small push on the compartment lid would set the cam into a lower groove making the tighter fit. Since the shell was smooth and the cam was spring loaded, opening the latch was very smooth and didnt require much effort. They were many times easier to open/close than the standard Perko latch and did not require pushing downward on the lid to open or close. My opinion is if the manufacturer (Perko) would have “beefed” up the stems, “beefed” up the shell/block, and would have made the shell/block a small bit longer, then the Southco latch wouldnt even be in discussion at this time. Most would have wanted to trade out their standard Perko latches for slam latches.
Agreed! They were trick, though wound up being another loss of time and money. BCB
I can certainly appreciate all the previous comments but the SIMPLE way to look at this is as follows. Could the Perkos have been improved? Yes. Do partners get excited, not go through the pressure release before twisting latch and break them? Yes, Ive had this happen and the result was a broken latch. As noted by Rick, other manufacturers used the same Perkos without problems unique to BCB. Why? Their lids leaked because there was not a pressure seal on the boxes and your stuff got wet. So, through 2008 we have a choice. Go through the correct process and teach our partners the correct process of opening lids that SEAL to protect the contents of the boxes from moisture – or – have latches that open easily but require the user/owner to empty dry storage compartments when they get wet. Every once in a while, we get a bad latch so we should replace it. For wblanton or anyone to have the privilege to use this forum is wonderful. But to say that BCBs Perkos are junk because they require a little more user input than brand X seems flawed to me. Its almost like saying I want the advantage of real dry storage offered by BCB but want my latches to work like brand X. As Phil indicated, they were the best we had at the time. Frankly, Ive had my share of problems with them. Most of my problems were user error and not paying attention to details. While they may not have been ideal, they were used on most major boat brands for several years. As mentioned, the major difference between others and BCB was a seal on dry storage versus the others – that is the trade off isnt it? One option requres thought and more user input and the result is dryer contents in boxes. The other option requires less user input, fewer variables to consider, and more moisture within storage boxes. Same latch, different priorities. Now we have a better option and Im sure things will get even better in the future. I, for one, will always be willing to take a little time and effort to keep my stuff dry. Others may prefer to have latches that require less effort and put up with wet stuff. Anyway, thats my story and Im sticking to it. I hope all of you have a blessed Christmas and that in the New Year we all realize how wonderful it is that we have the freedom to express our opinions and chase fish.
Shucks, I was happy when they went from the old style that the lock was down inside with the plastic handles and tended to break and they went with the new style Perkos, I did not hesitate to upgrade mine. I had the old 80s & 90s styles on my old boats and what an improvement the newer Perkos are over those. I have only broken 1 newer latch and that was all my fault. (Though I could blame it on the waves that made me fall when opening the compartment). Thanks Rick for the time to write such a detailed explanation.
What other company President would take the time to explain something to the people that use their product? I Love Bass Cat Boats!!!!!!
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